Alive conversation - pages 17-28
The text of the programme “Consciousness and Personality. From the inevitably dead to the eternally Alive” under the editorship of Anastasia Novykh. (Note, the abbreviations used in the text: presenter Tatiana – T; Igor Mikhailovich Danilov – IM; Zhanna – Zh; Volodya – V; Andrey – A).
00:58:59 - 01:35:57
IM: In general, in spiritual practices of different religions, special attention is paid to the topic of getting rid of illusory images. That is, in Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism as well as in more ancient religions, it was emphasized that there must be no images, meaning three-dimensional ones, especially in spiritual practices.
Zh: Yes, there is a difference here. When, let’s say, you hear this for the first time, or you read about it and your consciousness protests, saying “How is that?! Why should there be no images?!” And it's an entirely different matter when you know it already in practice, when you already have your personal understanding in the form of experience why it happens exactly this way.
T: That is, all these references in the religious literature become clear when you practice yourself.
Zh: Yes, it is exactly your own experience that gives this understanding, and you already have first-hand knowledge about what these phenomena are and how they diverge you from the most important. And there are plenty mentions of this.
For example, there is an ancient Persian treatise on Sufism - the book of Al-Hudjviri, which is called “Revelation of the Veiled.” There is an expression there by the Islamic theologian of IX century, Junaedi Al Baghdadi, which says “If God tells me “Look at Me”, then I will answer “I will not look at You” because in love of the eyes there is something different (not God)... In this world, I became used to seeing Him without the help of the eyes, then would I resort to their intermediary in the other world?”
And it's interesting when you in practice already understand that for you to feel God in the depth of the soul, there is no need either for the eyes or for the ordinary, earthy hearing, nor for some illusory, three-dimensional images. Because they are like obstacles from the consciousness, just from the system. This is what stands in the way…
T: In Christianity, there are also lots of mentions of this. About the fact that a person should not be tempted into illusory imagining of the spiritual. And the holy fathers have warned about the fact that mind, on its own, can have the power to dream, that it can easily create illusory images and in order to not be harmed by it, one should keep the mind colourless, formless, and imageless. For example, also in the book “Philokalia,” in the fifth volume, venerable Gregory of Sinai…
IM: ...Well, for those who don't know, he was an orthodox saint of the XIII century who revived the practice of the Jesus Prayer on Mount Athos.
T: Yes, it's absolutely right, he was one of the first hesychasts… And yes, he also wrote that when doing your deed, you’ll see light or fire, doesn't matter… inside or outside of you, or some face - that of Jesus, for example, or of an Angel, or of someone else - do not accept it in order not to suffer any harm. And do not create any images on your behalf, that are being created on their own, and do not pay attention to them and do not let the mind imprint them in you, because all this, being imprinted and imagined from the outside, serves only for the seduction of the soul.
IM: Many saints, even before the times of Gregory of Sinai, also said that one must not keep in mind any images or thoughts while doing a spiritual practice. And it doesn’t matter whether they are good or bad...Meaning, even if they are not bad, still, one must not focus on them. Your appeal, meaning your attention, should be on the inner content of the essence, that is, on the perception of the Spiritual World through feelings.
T: This is very important for those who practice… about the thoughts - that it doesn't matter whether they are good or bad. They are thoughts! People misunderstand this matter; they say “If good thoughts come to me during meditation, it's fine, right? Because they are good!”. All this is probably a consequence that in some religions they say it this way, in other religions - another way… well, they say. But the one who is searching for his own path usually searches for it everywhere. And here, consciousness immediately starts to mix it all up, and thus this misunderstanding occurs. And without Knowledge, it's very hard for a person to make sense of it all.
IM: No matter what you do by means of your thoughts, it's like scooping an ocean with a cup. It's meaningless. You will never reach an understanding if you are going to God by means of thoughts. A thought is an element of consciousness. And consciousness is a part of that which people call Iblis or devil. How can you cognize God by using an instrument given by devil? You can't. That's why it was said: listen only with your heart. Do not let your thought into the sacrament of God. For it will become not God’s but satanic. That’s the point. And this was said by those who have cognized it.
And others said exactly the opposite: “There should be clarity of the mind, the concentration of the mind. And in practices, focus your mind on the good thoughts. And perceive the good, because mind (consciousness) is divided into two categories: bad and good. And here is the essence: for you to have a good life, you need to separate: you do not perceive the bad, you only perceive the good. But the bad, it will worm its way into you, and as soon as you get distracted from the good, bad thoughts will come again and will seize your consciousness. And that is why you need to keep your mind clean. And to focus only on good thoughts and think all the time only about good things. In the beginning, it's hard, but then it will get better, better and better.” There are religions in which people are taught this way. And their whole meditation comes down to the fact that you need to keep your attention on a thought or the absence of thoughts.
You know what I would compare this to? I would compare this to… this is said not to offend them. I have a very good and exceptionally fine attitude towards all religions. In every religion, there are seeds, and in every religion, whatever it might be, there is an indication of the way, and what happens next is people's business. So, why am I saying all this? I would compare these practices to painkiller medications during the development of a fatal disease. A person, when taking painkillers, feels better, peaceful, almost healthy, while a deadly disease is progressing more and more and definitely leads to mortality. Why? Because there is relief of pain, but there is no treatment, so a disease is developing unrestrained and invisibly. This is not right.
Any work with a thought is just a fuss in the sandbox, in the three-dimensional material sandbox. Whether you think about good or whether you think about bad - you just think, you do not cognize what lies deeper. I would give one more comparison: you came to a lake, and you are admiring its smooth surface. Have you cognized this lake, its depth, its waters? Until you dive in, you won't know. And to know what's in these waters, you need to dive in. And to look at the waters and talk about what's swimming on its surface, it's possible, of course, but you will not know what this lake is in reality.
Something like that.
Zh: Yes, and all these images are just like an illusion on the surface of this lake, like an evaporation on a hot day. And here, there is such a moment that consciousness pulls in everything that it knows. It will always substitute. It will always think for you. It always distorts and completes the picture with something that seems to be. Everything to lure a person in. And it draws from the pantry of its memory everything that it knows, everything that fits in. But it happens only when a person stands on the shore and does not dare to enter these waters, into this lake, that is, he does not move forward. These images are like a way to attract attention. That is, for a person who is looking for this lake, they attract his attention. But for the person who already wants to know the depth, for one who wants to dive into this lake, they already start to distract.
IM: That's exactly right. As we have already said, images distract. And on the contrary, they orient the Personality... Well, what's going on? Let's just consider an image. The image is always three-dimensional, and it is associated with something habitual for our consciousness in three-dimensionality. For the Personality... And the Personality perceives not only three-dimensionality…
T: But it's not active here, in three-dimensionality, right?
IM: Yes, the Personality perceives the three-dimensionality only through the consciousness. It can not perceive this three-dimensional world by itself as we perceive it through the consciousness in images. Hence, any image, necessarily, comes through consciousness, i.e., through such an intermediate link.
Is it possible for a person to enter the Spiritual World using consciousness? It is impossible. But information, even that same Knowledge, it is spread, in the first place, in three-dimensionality. And when a person feels that it is true, he begins to study and become free with the help of that same consciousness. And here the consciousness works as a kind of intermediary which destroys itself.
That's what distinguishes Knowledge in its purity from distorted knowledge, for example. True Knowledge always speaks plainly and points the way, no more. There is a purity in it that the Personality feels. It always preserves the power coming from the Spirit, which is exactly what the Prophets convey, well, or someone who is saying through them, messengers, let's say. But again, when the Knowledge becomes distorted, it seduces the mind but does not attract the Personality. A Personality may be attracted if Knowledge is partially changed, meaning, there are substitutions, but insignificant ones, still preserving the essence of what was said. But such substitutions are dangerous, they distract, but at the same time, they retain at least a little essence and that inner power that they carry in themselves. And here the Personality still has a chance to escape.
But when the images come in large measure, when the desire for magic or something else is triggered, and the image is a three-dimensionality, first of all. And behind the three-dimensionality, there is always a desire for magic, a desire for material goods, force, and the like. And those who passed this way were saying this, and they understood basically in any religion. And why did they advise their disciples to get rid of all earthly things, in the first place, meaning, from the images in the spiritual practice, and to strive with the whole Soul, "with all the heart", as they called the Personality, exactly to God? That means, with the perception by feelings, to strive for the Spiritual World, namely to merge, connect with that world, and then the consciousness surrenders.
But again, I emphasize, consciousness served as an intermediate link here. That means, when a person does not have freedom, he is dependent on the three-dimensionality, and you can talk to him through his consciousness only. And here it is important what is given and how it is given. If Knowledge is pure and everything happens honestly, as they say, without substitution, then it is transmitted, and it reaches the Personality, and the person feels it all. Most often, the first thing a person perceives is the outrage of his consciousness. The consciousness starts to make noise, but the person feels. This feeling of sincerity overcomes the unwillingness of consciousness to know this Truth. That’s the way... the Truth itself is born.
T: So, the consciousness often manipulates, deceives, and trips up a person exactly through the images. For example, you have met a person, and his appearance or his image creates one impression, one image in your consciousness. The consciousness has created for itself some stereotyped ideal or, on the contrary, that “everything is bad”. And then there is mutual work or life with this person and the whole ideal; your illusion has been destroyed by your own consciousness. Why? Because your consciousness has found out what the consciousness of this person is saying. That is, in reality, a person is subconsciously drawn to the spiritual part of another person but then the consciousness interferes and transforms everything into pride and power over its kind. However, if you work on yourself and live by another perception - by the deepest feelings, then you already know the difference between Truth and Lies, all these substitutions. That is, the consciousness tells and shows you one thing, but you already feel something completely different.
Zh: Yes, and you realise that in the three-dimensional world these are just images which exist only in your consciousness and only when you yourself feed them with your attention.
T: Yes, our entire society is organised to the tune of pride and power over your kind, meaning, to the consciousness’s dominance... Everything is built on images, on some imaginary beliefs about oneself, people, and the world as a whole. Television, the Internet...if we consider those same companies, organizations, and advertising, everything is emphasized by the images.
IM: An image is a tool of magic.
T: That means, if consciousness dominates in a person, then an image can be used for enslavement, as the image is familiar. This gives an understanding why a person should not concentrate on the images while searching for the way to God.
IM: That is exactly right. For example, let us consider inculturation. What is inculturation?
T: It is nothing but images...It is an adaptation of a new religion to the culture of local people and, as a result, a substitution of the traditional religion for the new one.
IM: That is exactly right. Let us consider Christianity. What happened when they started to disseminate that same Christianity?
T: There was exactly the substitution of certain images for other ones. After all, from history, the first ecclesiastical experiments in inculturation of Christianity… It all started with the sermons of the Apostle Paul when he tried to inculcate a new religion among the Greeks and the Romans. However, when Christianity already became an official religion (at first, it was one organization, then it was split up into several organizations), then, for example, in missionary activity, those same Catholic temples in various countries, how were they arranged? In the way adapted for the local culture.
IM: Yes, that's right.
T: For example, what was depicted on the icons? Again, the images… the images of the main biblical personalities: Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the Apostles. However, it is interesting how were they depicted? They were depicted with the face features which coincide with the external phenotypic features of the local people.
IM: That is exactly right. They started to introduce some substitutions in their missionary activity. For example, in African countries, Jesus or the Virgin Mary were shown in icon-painting as the Africans, dark skinned. It is a habitual image, which was not rejected. Why? Because supposedly the white ones would have been rejected by the majority of people. Only some people, those who felt the grains of truth in this Knowledge, would evolve… And, taking into account that a religious organization is, first of all, an organization and large-scale involvement is essential for it, that is why such substitutions were implemented where the saints were presented as dark skinned. They were familiar, they were understood by the African people, and those accepted this readily.
Inculturation took place not only in the substitution of images but also in many holidays of certain religions which Christianity replaced. They partly introduced cult ceremonies of those religions, which dominated within the territories where Christianity was being established. In such a manner, they lured, simply put, those people within whose territories the very Christianity was being introduced, meaning, the introduction was happening, in the truest sense of the word.
T: Yes, there are a lot of examples… Those same Old Slavonic Christmastide, which already under the influence of Christianity, began to be associated with Christmas ceremonies, the attributes of which were a candle as the person’s light of life and a mirror. And such holidays, which were borrowed from more ancient religions, exist not only in Christianity.
For example, in the Central Asian countries, where the religion of Islam is professed, the holiday of Navruz Bayram is celebrated, meaning, the New Year’s Day. It is one of the oldest holidays. It is celebrated on the night before the day of vernal equinox. The interesting fact is that this holiday is celebrated annually in honour of resurrection from under the earth of the Good spirit bringing light, and of the defeat of the Evil spirit. It is almost like modern Easter. It is interesting that some of the main attributes of the table are candles, mirror, and coloured eggs. All of them have symbolic meaning, and this meaning is connected with the spiritual interpretation of these symbols. So, for example, a candle is the inner light of a person, his or her vital force, while an egg symbolises a birth of the person’s spiritual life. And the holiday of Navruz Bayram was celebrated as early as the golden age of the ancient religion of Zoroastrianism which preceded both Christianity and Islam.
“Life can’t be temporary, only
existence is temporary”.
All of this temporal world is just an illusion of mirror intersections which captures the man's attention by false realism of shadows, their play of mutual contemplations. These are multiple mirror reflections which make up the essence of the illusory world – the world of many pseudo-copies. These mirrors, while turning, only distort the reflected light and are not light by their nature. Illusion arises from the seduction of a person by the desires of this world, his unwillingness to enter into a true reality. There are many more reflections, and they attract human attention focusing him on the dead. The true nature (the inclusion of the force of Allat) was compared to a burning candle. It was mentioned that when the burning candle disappears, everything visible will disappear and turn into nothing. The candle is a constant burning; the mirrors are constant reflection. Everything is a reflection of something, its cause and effect.
Whatever draws human attention more: the mirror play of many reflections of the material world or the true spiritual source – the part of that he becomes in the end. Only the one who is not bound to the visible, takes care of the Soul. (“Primordial ALLATRA Physics”, allatra-science.org).
T: That is how it happens in history…
Constant innovations of well overlooked old, when one religion succeeds another but claims its uniqueness.
IM: Again, is it good or bad? On the one hand, you can say it’s bad, but on the other hand, if you look closer - what’s wrong with that? One religion was replaced by another. A person has the right to choose whom to serve and how to behave. And again, who did this? People. Through what? Through their consciousness. What for? In order to popularize their faith. That is, out of good motives, they used certain three-dimensional tools to achieve a particular goal.
One judges for oneself whether it is good or bad. For example, I, to be honest, don’t see anything wrong with this. On the one hand, they seem to have substituted long-standing religions for their religions, but they are just organizations. If we draw a parallel with any organization… Let's take an organization that produces sportswear: everywhere, there are its signs, popularization, advertising of their clothes. If there is a famous or recognizable person in a particular territory, it is enough to dress him in this sportswear, and people start imitating. This is natural, again we return to primates, to how the consciousness works.
It is just that the tool of consciousness was being used. But used by whom? People, who primarily cared about their organization flourishing and expanding, just like, for example, an organization that sells or produces sportswear. Well, what can you want from people? Is it good or bad? For the organization it’s good, but what about people who have received this knowledge? But if they received this knowledge and did not use it, and as I said, there are no bad religions, all religions are good. In any religion, as in any organization, there are bad people who serve the exact opposite, not in conformity to their religion, not in conformity to the Teachings that are given in this religion. But again, they are just slaves of the system; they are only slaves of Satan, what can we do? People are people.
T: Yes, but unfortunately, we live in a consumer society where the spiritual path, natural for each person, is limited at best to the framework of a particular local religion. And religions, they are also restricted by the framework of a particular organization and, correspondingly, their popularization in such a society, in the consumer society, it does not proceed through the spiritual perception of people by feelings, but through images, through desires from the consciousness. Well, that is why such phenomenon as inculturation is still inherent...
IM: If we look deeper, what is inculturation? Well, if you discard everything ... It is just an advertising tool, nothing more. It is the natural evolutionary development of this or that organization.
A video about the inculturation of Christianity in the world. It shows icons from different countries of the world with the images of the Virgin Mary, Archangel Gabriel, Jesus Christ, and Christian saints, whose facial features coincide with the external phenotypic features of different peoples. Examples of Christian art in North Africa, Asia, North America and other parts of the world are given. It refers to the fact that there are more than 700 different images of Mary in the world. Parts of the text from the Bible in a Chinese dialect of Hakka, in Arabic, in Hindi and other languages, are given.
T: Igor Mikhailovich, I know from personal experience that such a question may arise
because at one time, frankly speaking, information about inculturation came as a shock to me. Because, all of a sudden, you discovered in yourself that your consciousness considered, without any doubt, Jesus or Mary, for example, to be yours, to look like your nation, to be exactly as you saw them on icons in your childhood. That is, you believed in this, you were satisfied with this, but exactly by this, you limited yourself. It can be said that due to your own laziness and pride, you did not go further in your spiritual knowledge. And that's why the consciousness’ patterns collapsed. And consciousness immediately started to search for someone to blame for it, in the outer world. But, thank God, a work on oneself was in progress, and there were certain understandings through feelings, and thanks to that, you realized that the enemy actually was inside of you, that consciousness was limiting you, that it was exactly consciousness that was making you believe in images and not search for the spiritual essence, precisely about which was said in the Teaching of this religion.
But then one more question remained. When I learnt for the first time that it wasn't about the images, I faced such a standard thought from the consciousness: “How can this be? It is Jesus himself! It is the Virgin Mary herself! How can I drive them away from me in prayers, this is not right”.
IM: When a person is doing some practice or when an image of any saint comes to him, it comes as a three-dimensional image, then do not get distracted. And many saints have spoken about this, even if Jesus or Mary appears in front of you - drive that image away. Drive away not them, but this image. Why? Because the consciousness manifests it all as an image. It means that the point of that image is a distraction. It means that a person is not in a spiritual state, but just in a changed state of consciousness. And this three-dimensional image is nothing but a deception even if it says the right things. But the subtext will be definitely harmful to a person, not helpful. And when a person is in a spiritual practice, he perceives even those same representatives of the Spiritual World, he feels them, meaning, there is no definite three-dimensional form.
Zh: That is, here he already feels, not sees.
IM: He feels.
Zh: He does not redirect his attention anymore…
IM: Of course.
Zh: After all, people are not told, for example, that the Virgin Mary is a Spirit. What is the Virgin Mary in reality? Because if a true meaning of “Spirit” is lost, then only material understanding remains, understanding that it’s “Mother,” that it’s “protection and care”. And here consciousness plays such a sneaky role with people because it actively promotes images through, again, religions, as an element of magic.That means, in those places where people truly need to gain an understanding and ability to live by the Spiritual World, the world of God, through the deepest feelings - an entirely opposite story happens. People get stuck on images and simply do not go beyond these images because the consciousness at that moment tries to focus the power of person’s attention on this very substitution - on magic. That means, a person, by appealing to images drawn by other people, starts, as a consumer, to ask for something earthy for himself.
IM: Right words.
T: So when I started to study this issue, I saw Knowledge given in the book “AllatRa” in a new way and realized that originally in the early Christianity there were practically no images, there were signs and symbols.
IM: Correct, and that is why in the renewed religion, brought by the Prophet Muhammad, it was clearly stated “do not create any images”, and they were moving away from images. Why are icons prohibited there, portrayals of that same Muhammad are forbidden and so on? So that consciousness does not create an image. One should perceive through feelings; one should cognize the perception through feelings. Muhammad taught this to his disciples: to perceive the Spiritual World and representatives of the Spiritual World through feelings. But not visually, not by using visualisation, not with the help of hallucinations. That’s the point.
T: Yes, in Islam, images in the decoration of holy places are not accepted. Muslims compose abstract patterns and pictures…
IM: That is exactly right.
T:… For that, they use epithets, names of God, or verses from Quran from Arabic writing.
IM: That is right, even Muslim imams say that those who think that Allah has a face, be it of light, of a young or an old man - they do not know Allah Almighty, they do not know that it’s simply their imagination and presentation, meaning, their illusion, which does not exist in reality. And those people’s trouble is that they do not understand the existence without a body, that is why they stubbornly attribute to Allah both a body and the qualities of a human. But it is said in Quran that “there is nothing like Him” (meaning Allah)...
Zh: Yes… God, He does not have boundaries so that one could imagine Him and mentally comprehend His nature.
IM: Whatever you search for in your thoughts, you will not be able to find it to describe His great face, for He has no face, He is so great, that there is nothing like Him…
Whatever you search for in your thoughts,
you will not be able to find it
to describe His great face,
for He has no face,
He is so great,
that there is nothing like Him…
T: Basically, now a broader explanation is given of what images on icons of that same Virgin Mary are and what the Virgin is in reality, as a Spirit. But back then, yet another question from the consciousness arose: “But how is it that… that the images of the God’s Mother come to individuals all over the world?”
IM: Why does the system often use images? Regarding the fact that practically all over the world people who are religiously focused, and even those who are not religiously focused, often experience a vision of the representatives of the Spiritual World. That is, in habitual images. Very often, they see the Virgin Mary as a quick helper, but again, in the majority of cases, it is precisely a creation of Mary’s antipode.
That means the consciousness uses a familiar image to anchor people exactly in the material. And here, note, that a person, while in a sick state, is praying and an image of that same Mary comes to him, and he is cured. What will be happening to that person? His faith will be strengthened… faith in the consciousness, but doubts inside. And a person does not go himself to develop spiritually, but he gets stuck exactly in the moment that he was selected, he is chosen, they came to him, he was saved. As if by being cured of an illness a person was saved?! A simple question. What, will he… not die now? Has he become immortal? This is a trick from the consciousness. What will arise in him? Faith will arise in him - yes, understanding - yes, but also fear. The fear which will not let him enter into the Spiritual World.
What did he ask for? For material wealth, a resolution of some conflict situation, better life. What did he get in the end? Such an opportunity. But what is happening now? Fear of loss. What's stopping him? Fear. Does he have the opportunity? Yes, he does. But the fear of the unknown, but from whom that fear is coming? From the consciousness, from the one who asked for help in front of the icon. And this way it locks him.
Zh: The consumer attitude towards the Spiritual world. That means, he will ask again if he...
IM: Surely, he will always ask. He will not do it himself. Why does he need to create anything on his own if he can ask and get it? It is much easier this way.
However, this may happen too: a human does feel an interference… A person who should do something in his life, something good, or he stands on the verge, let us say, facing the choice, he feels the presence. He realizes that it is an influence of the Virgin Mary, exactly her influence. However, he does not see a three-dimensional image. It is a perception through feelings. That is the poinT: the perception through feelings, and when magic already appears. The magic always comes from the system. It does not come from the Spiritual World. The Spiritual World does not need any magic. Why does it need to intervene in this world?
Sometimes a direct interference occurs, but those cases are relatively rare; more often, it is just, let us say, goodwill, we can call it so. It is a manifestation of that power which is used just to help people in their spiritual development as the Personality when it can be felt even at the physical level. This is to help people. However, many people use these forces to develop metaphysical abilities in themselves. Again, they turn it all to the detriment. Why do they turn it all to the detriment? As directed by the consciousness. Does he as a Personality not feel and understand that he should preserve these grains of life-giving dew and use them on his way through the desert?
T: … That is, to multiply them.
IM: That is right. That means one should not only preserve them but with their help, advance on this path. However, the consciousness immediately distracts and says: “Just do it, pay your attention to this, - the person has paid and has seen the result. You see - it works! You have gained something in the three-dimensional world.” What have you gained here that will stay with you? Nothing. All this is an illusion; all this is temporary. Just another picture in your consciousness. That is how the consciousness works.
T: That is, it makes you constantly come back to the Source again and again.
IM: ...to desire it, this Source. And a person strives for this Source, while not becoming it himself, but just strives for it in order to use it once again for the three-dimensional purposes.
Zh: He comes for additional forces.
IM: That is exactly right, it is nothing more than an accumulation of forces. It is given in extreme cases when it is necessary to help people, but nothing more. Why are these tools used so rarely and it is given quite rarely in reality? Because people often use it, first of all, for three-dimensional purposes, and not for spiritual growth. Well, sometimes it is used just as a confirmation, or it was called a “seal”. That is, a “seal of power”- it is something that is manifested…
From the inevitably dead to the eternally Alive.