Alive conversation - pages 73-85
The text of the programme “Consciousness and Personality. From the inevitably dead to the eternally Alive”
under the editorship of Anastasia Novykh.
(Note, the abbreviations used in the text: presenter Tatiana – T; Igor Mikhailovich Danilov – IM; Zhanna – Zh; Volodya – V; Andrey – A).
FROM THE INEVITABLY DEAD TO THE ETERNALLY ALIVE.
CONSCIOUSNESS AND PERSONALITY
04:21:43 – 05:05:28
T: Igor Mikhailovich, for many people, quite an important question is what does it mean "God created a human in His image and likeness"?
IM: Interesting question. Many are concerned with what it means – in image and likeness. For a deeper understanding, I think it is better to touch a little bit upon, for example, the Bible, the Old Testament, the book of Genesis, its first chapter, where it talks about how after the separation of Light from Darkness, after the creation of the world, God decided to create a human. And as we know, it happened on the sixth day of creation: “And God said, Let Us make a human in Our image and after Our likeness”. There is also a very interesting reference therein that God created humankind in His own image; male and female He created them. And here the question arises, what does it mean "in His image and likeness"? We have already brought up this issue more than once in the discussions and other programmes because many people interpret this literally, that a human was created in the image and likeness of God. And here, there is such a divergence, as always, in consciousness. "God created in His image and likeness" – the consciousness perceives itself as image and likeness of God.
However, the New Testament, the Gospel of John (chap. 4, verse 24) says, "God is a Spirit". This is what Jesus told his disciples, that God is a Spirit. Hence, He created a human in His image as a spiritual being, and in a human, that which is alike the Spiritual World is a Spirit or what we call a Personality. However, the Personality, pardon me, – it is not material, it is spiritual. Hence, the image and likeness is nothing other than the spiritual component of a human.
And in many religions, they tried to explain that a human – it is sort of a spirit, born of the spirit...
T: ...and that God created a human twice, as You have mentioned.
IM: Yes. God created a human twice. Those who really seek and truly strive for spiritual cognition (who do not just believe, to the dictation of their consciousness, in everything that is acceptable to the system, but who experience inner thirst), those, as a rule, are searching in not only one religion but wherever God is mentioned. And I think, they have more than once come across the information from other more ancient religions and from Zoroastrianism, which we have been talking about, that once people used to be incorporeal beings, they did not have flesh. They matured, became those whom, for example, they call Angels in modern religion, and went away.
T: ...So they were invisible, incorporeal spirits.
IM: Indeed, today people understand the comparison with Angels, but in ancient times, associations of three-dimensionality were more clear to people, for example, related to the local plants, animals or something else, meaning what they saw and perceived in everyday life. If we consider, for example, that same Zoroastrianism, then the image of the first people – a man and a woman, I emphasize, as a single invisible being, was associatively compared to a noble rhubarb. This is the plant which grew in those places where the Teaching itself originated. It is a two-meter plant, the trunk of which is similar to two intertwined snakes. Well, you have often seen this symbol...
T: Yes, this symbol in the form of two intertwined snakes (caduceus) was often used in ancient times in different cultures as a symbol of birth, consent, universal movement, as a symbol of harmony of two principles in a human: yin and yang. Previously it was used as an attribute of gods, on the staffs of priests. And today caduceus is known as one of the symbols of medicine.
IM: Yes. But there is one important point here which I would like to mention. Why was this comparison given and why the entwinement of the male and female principles? It is now, in matter, that we have a man and a woman. However, the first people were asexual just like an Angel. An Angel does not have flesh. An Angel does not have gender. And this should be understood. Previously, this, let us say, male and female principle – it was merged in one being. That is why it was said that first people were like a rhubarb plant, this means, a man and a woman were a single intertwined creature, and farr of Ahura Mazda... meaning, farr of God stretched above them, that is, they were in God’s Love... By the way, the first gods of ancient Chinese pantheon – Fuxi and Nüwa were depicted the same way…
T: ... of whom there is a mention in the book "AllatRa".
IM: Yes. And by choice, it was precisely by the human choice, what did God do? He made them material.
T: ... As it is said in the legends of Zoroastrianism, "they both transformed from the floral image to the human image, and farr, as a Spirit, entered them"…
IM: ...as a Spirit. Again, they transformed from one image into another. However, the main essence of them was not in images but in the spiritual core, meaning, in their spiritual component. However, here we already see and read the echoes of consciousness. Anyway, what is being told nowadays (a comparison with rhubarb and the like) was a simple comparison...
But again, in more ancient teaching it is said that after they acquired matter, they still remained their essence. That is, there were no men and women at the first, initial stage. This is also interesting. And so, as I said at the beginning, male and female principle were merged into one being.
T: That is, such a phenomenon as the androgyny of the first human was inherent, meaning unity, a combination of male and female gender in one person... Such a hermaphroditism, meaning, the ability to fertilize, when both egg cells and spermatozoa develop in one organism, that is, both one type of germ cells and the other. This phenomenon is also common for the animal world.
IM: Yes, the analogy is preserved.
T: It is very interesting, in the Bible, in chapter 5 of the Book of Genesis, it is exactly mentioned that God has created human: a man and a woman, and gave them the name: “human”. And further, it says that Adam gave birth to a son. And it is now that we mistakenly think, based on translations, that Adam is a man. However, in reality, in the language of the original, when this word is used without an article, then it does not represent a proper noun, well, as a male name, but serves only as a designation of a human in general, meaning, it is applicable equally to both man and woman.
IM: This is a significant moment… Later on, God has nevertheless approved such a gender difference, and people were divided into men and women in order for people to have, let's say… Well, let’s say it straight, in order to complicate the path Home.
Why is this done? Again, for some, a misunderstanding will arise in the consciousness: “Why should the path Home be more complicated? After all, God, on the contrary, should protect his children.” I will answer with an analogy of three-dimensionality: we do send our children to study. And we care that our children do not simply finish school, but also acquire some profession, achieve something in life, that they become good people, at least, in our understanding. Everyone has their own understanding of what a good person is. Well, so that they become good people, find themselves in life. It's not quite like that, but approximately.
And again, all this was upon the request of those same people. Because the first people, according to Zoroastrianism – they themselves asked for flesh so that it would be possible to overcome certain difficulties, to deservedly reach God’s Love. Well, it is exactly that which created obstacles. And it is that, which served as a reason for the creation of the material world, the creation of flesh. Then there was a final division of this flesh into man and woman. Well, and then the substitutions of the concept of True Love with human love started.
And human love, as we know, it is temporary. A simple example of how consciousness plays with people. Well, there is love between a man and a woman. Here, they love each other, but think about others and desire others. Is this love? Well, of course not. So this is the way it has all started.
But all this creates certain difficulties and gives a certain tool to the consciousness. Since a body appeared – consciousness appeared. Since bodies were divided, so a bigger concern of the consciousness about “its” other “half” appeared. Well, again, is it really “its”? There appeared a myth that “it’s necessary to find one’s other half”, that “it definitely exists” and so on. And so “rhubarb” is running around and searching for its second part.
It's interesting, of course. Generally, legends are not all empty; there is much meaning in them. One simply needs to know how to understand them.
Zh: Yes, it's very interesting, also taking into account what You have told us earlier: that there are more powers of Allat in a woman, but she is less stable, and a man is more stable, but there are fewer powers of Allat in him when compared to a woman. Here, of course, the question is not in who has more or less of what. These competitions in thoughts – these are the games from the consciousness. In reality, everyone has enough of everything, if one invests one’s attention rationally. And the question here is in something different – where are you redirecting these powers of Allat with your attention? What are you multiplying in yourself: death or Life?
T: Yes, this is indeed interesting. And you know, now you understand more deeply how your own consciousness, to a large extent, complicates your own life. How consciousness evokes a multitude of consumeristic, negative thoughts, of quarrels between people, between man and woman, and why, in general, there are no true, deepest feelings in the relationships between them. You understand how consciousness entices and perplexes women with the external, directing away the power of their attention from true Love, from true Source, which lies within them. How the consciousness plunges them into its lies, into its artifice, into deception, into the hoarding of dust, into some kind of false goals and simply makes them waste life on these same illusions.
Because, if we take a look, what does a woman live by in her thoughts? What does she waste her life on? On magic: on a search of the external love, on its loss and return, on enmity, sorcery. Meaning, nothing but magic.
And men? They do thirst for Love. But even here, consciousness, once again, turns everything upside down, to its own benefit, for itself, imposes on you this game in three-dimensionality, the result of which is emptiness and disappointment in everything. And here consciousness drives men to an unsatisfied egoism, into envy, into constant competition in a chase for importance, into deciding who is stronger, who is cooler, who is richer. And, as an end result, what does all this lead to? To aggression, wars, sufferings. And their consciousness deals with women the same way. It simply imposes on them the thought that they should possess a woman as a thing, meaning, not love, not be in harmony with her, but exactly possess as a thing.That is, an enslavement of the divine nature by the consciousness…
And here you understand that before you lived only like that, according to the dictation of the consciousness, that you constantly demanded something from the others for yourself. But here already another question arises: “Was it indeed for yourself?” And you suffered from it yourself. You did not know about this inner, God’s Love and you did not cultivate it in yourself.
God has created a human twice.
T: That means, when creating a human, there were two main stages: the stage of... spiritual birth and the stage... of transformations in matter... Now, I'll pause for a minute and voice the thoughts that sounded in my head just now. Thoughts from the system, when it tried to impose its ready-made final answer, and I almost said that "there were two main stages: before the creation of matter and after." It always tries to trick and to slip in first the thought about its... so-called ‘super-importance’... It always tries to cram down the importance of matter, erasing the importance of the spiritual... And yet again, you ascertain how important it is to control exactly what you say, what you want to say, and not your consciousness.
Zh: Yes, and as Igor Mikhailovich had said, that to speak from consciousness and to broadcast from the Spirit are completely different matters. Because the consciousness always wants to be a partner to the Personality, and worse than that, also a dictator. But the Personality – it is not a partner, it is not a slave of the consciousness. The Personality – it is the Master. It is the one that pays with its attention for this whole presentation of consciousness. It is the one that is responsible for the results. When you know about this, then it's very easy to be yourself and not to be afraid to expose your consciousness.
T: Yes, you have to be honest with yourself, honest in practice...
T: So then, when the human being was created, there were two main stages, and the key one was the moment of precisely the human's choice – the choice to serve the Spiritual World, even while being imprisoned here, in matter.
IM: That's absolutely right. Initially, people were born like, let's say, little angels, they grew up, developed, and became a part of the Spiritual World. They did not know suffering; they did not know evil. Well, it was joyful, wonderful, good. But people have chosen precisely the difficult path. Here, in Zoroastrianism, it is well said that they made a decision, I emphasize, people decided to oppose evil while in the body. Meaning, to gain materiality.
T: Yes, this legend is mentioned in the sacred books of Zoroastrianism, that at one time, God asked people whether He should protect them from Ahriman or if they themselves, already in a corporal shell, 'in a corporal form', can fight and defeat him, after which they will become immortal. And people chose the latter.
IM: This is the choice of the people themselves. They wanted to oppose Ahriman while in bodies, to begin under his rule, to begin with duality. This is such a serious choice so that it is not little angels, but Angels that would come to the Spiritual World. It was brought into the material world where people were born, developed, and then consciously chose that they needed to go to the Spiritual World. And this is interesting, joyful, when Angels come, this is great.
T: And here is also such an interesting aspect that in the books on that same Zoroastrianism, it is said that the God of Good (Ahura Mazda) made his creations precisely in the form of spiritual beings. Or rather, He created "spiritual images of all creatures", and only then created the material world and gave the created form a corporeal appearance. And that His creations, embodied in the "corporeal form", will be able to overcome Ahriman and the evil created by him, and that the main protagonists of Ahriman are exactly the people themselves.
Zh: Yes... Another one of those key points, which are also noted there, is that victory is possible only with the active participation of the person himself, that a person must remember that he comes from the Spiritual world, that he is a spiritual being and not an earthly one, and that precisely the spiritual affairs – they are much more important than the earthly ones.
T: That's absolutely right. It is pointed out that Ahriman very much wants to conceal from people what will really happen to them if they follow his intentions, meaning, to conceal the punishment for sins, and "final result". But it is just the opposite with regard to Ahura Mazda. He very much wants to be recognised; He is open to everyone. And what is also interesting, it is mentioned that a person, already upon reaching the age of 15, must know the answer to the question whom he belongs to: to Ahura Mazda or to Ahriman.
IM: The age of 15 years was specified later due to the delay in the development of some people. But overall, initially, it was 11-12 years of age. By 11-12 years of age, a person had to make his final choice – whom he serves.
Zh: Is it connected to the surge?
IM: Yes, this is due to a secondary surge, and the person had already made an independent choice, whom he is with: with Ahura Mazda or with Ahriman.
So, if we look, many religions affirm or mention the fact that the devil is cunning and invisible, and that he is hiding from eyes, and it is enough to expose the devil for him to lose his power. In reality, there is a deep meaning here. So, we have already talked about the work of consciousness and the like. When a person begins to realise and understand that consciousness is playing a cruel joke on him, and it turns out that a person does not have his own will, but he only executes the will of either the Spiritual world or of the system of the material world, then he can choose whose will to execute. And here, too, I would like to touch upon such a point, we have already mentioned this: under no circumstances is a person a slave of God. He can become a slave only to his consciousness. That is, a person is free to choose whom to serve: Ahriman or Ahura Mazda, or speaking the habitual language of modern times, Satan or God. Whom does he serve? If he serves Ahriman (Satan), then in this case, he becomes a slave. But if he serves God, then he becomes free.
T: You know, in its time, this information had touched me very deeply, that it all began and happened exactly by human choice. After all, this is precisely the True heroism... Of course, it is difficult for the consciousness to understand all this importance and significance of what is happening. After all, in essence, you are deep behind the lines of the enemy of a human. Because you, as the Personality, are enclosed in construction with a material body, with an active consciousness, and on top of it, you are surrounded from all the sides by an artificial system.
Zh: That is, you are inside the dead. And only your Soul connects you with your own home, with the Living. And really, you must boundlessly Love the world of God in order to have this enormous power of the Spirit, to resist the system while being imprisoned in it, to serve the Spiritual World here, in this hell, in order to return Home with an inner, mature, true victory...
T: Yes ... Igor Mikhailovich, You have pointed out quite correctly that the ancient legends are not that simple as they appear at first glance.
IM: Absolutely right.
T: So, in both Zoroastrianism and in Christianity, take even the stories about the fact that God created a human twice. We are now examining this topic...
IM: Yes, in the Bible, there is a description of the creation of a human by God not only on the sixth day but also on the eighth day. It means that He created him a second time. But here it is written already in a completely different way: "And the Lord God formed man of dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." This is the Book of Genesis, chapter 2, verse 7; anyone can open and read it.
So, if the first time, He creates him in His image and likeness, He creates the one who is incorporeal. It was a spiritualized being, immaterial. And it's only a matter of time, it matures, merges, and leaves when already mature. So here we see that on the eighth day God creates a human from the dust of the earth. And so, a lot clings to the eighth day. We encounter a very interesting phenomenon, if we move away from the Bible as an updated version of ancient religions and lean a little bit on ancient religions (although it remained in later religions as well, for example, in both Christianity and in Islam, and in many other religions, it is very developed in Judaism), why was the name given to a person on the eighth day and that sort of thing?
T: Yes, many peoples have preserved legends and sacred actions connected precisely with the eighth day of a person's birth...
IM: That's right, because it was exactly on the eighth day that the Soul came into the human body as a vessel and formed a Personality. And from here come these words that the Lord God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", meaning, the creation of the Personality...
T: ...with the coming of the Soul.
IM: Yes. Then the Personality was maturing, ripening while being in the human body, and had to merge with the Soul.
T: That is, while being inside the dead, the very system that is set against all that is divine, while being imprisoned into a part of this system, you as a Personality, as an Alive Spirit, remain flawless in devotion, in service to the Spiritual world, in the multiplication of spiritual Love even here, being here in such conditions...
IM: And the heroism lies precisely in this. Why did it happen exactly this way? There is also logic for the mind in this, because a living being that fights for life, that goes through adversities, it performs a certain feat: it defeats the devil, wins his Armageddon, and gains Life. And a mature Angel comes. That is, it really becomes an event that is reflected in the entire boundlessness of the Spiritual World.
Zh: That is, inside the inevitably dead, you become eternally Alive.
Inside the inevitably dead,
you become eternally Alive.
T: Igor Mikhailovich, we were just now talking about the creation of the first people, and it would be quite interesting to throw light on one more very important question. In various religions, this question is called the Fall of the first human, and in Christianity, it is named as ‘the original sin or ancestral sin’. Well, and from here arises such a disturbing question for a thinking person: “Am I sinful from birth owing to the fact that people are initially sinful as the human race? Am I initially sinful or, for example, are my children or babies sinful if they have not yet done anything bad?”
To put it briefly, what does a layman know about this question? That which is written in the third chapter of the Book of Genesis – that the sin (the Fall) was committed by the first human couple – Adam and Eve in Paradise, when they were tempted by the devil and tasted the forbidden fruit from ‘the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil’ or as it also called ‘the Tree of Life and Death’. And, as a result, they were banished from Paradise and became mortal beings, and that is why afterwards all people have already become sinners. And today there are a lot of different interpretations about this legend from the Book of Genesis.
What frightens and oppresses the believer? The fact that he is sinful from birth, that he has a sinful damage. What has he heard in the church? That spiritual purification, liberation from the power of ‘the original sin’ occurs in the Sacrament of Baptism – this is a rite which is considered as a spiritual birth of a human in Christianity, meaning, as if he formally dies for a sinful life and is already born into a new blessed life. And that precisely owing to Baptism he will be granted freedom from the tyranny of the devil. People believe in this, but it does not go further than belief in the majority of cases. As a rule, people count on a ritual, but not on their personal transformation, not on inner work on themselves.
Among theologians of various organizations, confessions and trends, there is also no single opinion concerning this question, everyone just refers to their own authorities, to those who, what and when talked about this question, about whether a person is sinful from birth.
Generally speaking, Jesus didn’t say it, people said it. ‘The original sin’ – it is purely a theological term in Christianity. It was introduced 400 years after Jesus at the time when Christianity acquired the status of state religion. On the whole, it is as usual: people seem to go around the Truth in circles, only when they try to understand it with the mind, then this age-old controversy arises where the comma should properly be, as you correctly noted.
IM: Speaking of a sin, it is important to realise that a human is initially free and there is no sin behind him. A human – I mean as the Personality. What is ‘the first sin’? In various religions, we often come across that a person is initially sinful. And here we should examine what a sin is.
T: Yes, the question is that the notion of a sin, committed by a first human, of his Fall – it also exists in legends of other religions, for example, in that same Zoroastrianism. But we will return to this again. We really very much want to get to the bottom of how it is in actual fact…
IM: The first sin is actually – it is that moment of the first, the very first sin, when a human as the Personality had believed his consciousness. It is the first belief in a lie. That is exactly what the first sin is. When he was tempted by consciousness, as the Personality, he was tempted by the illusions of consciousness, by something material.
Well, and in the future, we can simply say that a human as the Personality is not initially sinful. But then a question arises, if a human as the Personality is not sinful, then why does he pass into the state of the subpersonality or, speaking the language of religion, why does he end up in hell if he is not sinful? But here, there is such a concept as an inaction.
A human as the Personality comes into this world in order to gain freedom from the material world and unite with the Spiritual World, meaning, to come into the Spiritual World as a mature being. But his inaction as the Personality, when a person lives by the world of illusion and puts all his attention into the illusions from consciousness, into his insatiable, illusory nature, it cannot be called otherwise;, he simply wastes his life. And he, well, let’s say, like a woman’s ovum which turned out to be unfertilized. It is the same with the Personality, if it is ‘not fertilized’, then it becomes a subpersonality. It continues, of course, its existence as no one has repealed energy conservation law and as long as there is energy, as long as there is a carrier, the information will exist. That is why a person remains exactly in the state of subpersonality.
But the sin as such ceases to exist as soon as a human as the Personality, I am stressing, becomes free from the slavery of consciousness. A person already starts to exist independently. He will not allow anything bad to happen. He puts his main efforts and all his attention precisely into the Spiritual World, in the beginning, into the search for this path, and later on, into being in this state until he gains Life.
So, a sin as such – this is a relative concept, and it is mainly imposed on the Personality. Everything is simple. In real fact, everything is simple, very simple. There is consciousness; there is the Personality, there is the Soul as a conductor or, let’s say, as a transport tool, it might be called so. If the Personality managed to unite, meaning if the Personality became free from the control of consciousness, threw off its fetters, it saw the reality, it felt the Spiritual World. And having felt the Spiritual World, one already doesn’t want to move away from it.
T: Yes, it is really simple. And it is very easy to understand this even after reading in that same Orthodoxy that initially a human didn’t have experience of being in a state without grace. That the Fall as such – it is a loss of blessed lofty state of being with God, it is a loss of Life in God. And this bliss is connected with the presence of the grace of the Holy Spirit in a human from the very creation. And that the Spirit acted in the Prophets and taught them, and it was inside of them and appeared to them. And the Spirit dwelt in Adam when it wanted, and Adam knew the sweetness of God’s Love.
Zh: ...Yes, and that the Holy Spirit is Love and sweetness of the Soul...And the one who has cognized God by the Holy Spirit, yearns insatiably for Living God day and night.
T: Yes… And this also explains why death was the result of falling away from God: as much as a person moved away from God, so much closer he came to death.
IM: Yes. When the Personality is in the slavery of the consciousness, it lives by illusion, precisely an imposed illusion. Well, here it might be called a state of sinfulness. And, of course, no one will pray for forgiveness of sin for you. No one will be able to forgive it for you until you yourself recover. A simple example, let’s take ancient times: a person is in a slavery of a Pharaoh. He meets a slave of the same kind, and that slave tells him: “You are not a slave, you are free, you can go where you want. And do not pay attention to the fetters. The fact that you can walk strictly within a defined area, well, what’s the difference, after all, you are free. Be satisfied with what you have and be joyful and praise your owner.” As it is precisely for the slaves, their owner is god; he can do whatever he wants with their lives. But again, only temporary existence is meant here under life. Well, therefore, think for yourself.
T: Yes, slaves do not know God, that is why they are slaves. They perceive their master as God… You know, I also wanted to share one moment from my childhood… Of course, in modern society, it is usually uncommon to talk about one’s sensations from the childhood because consciousness imposes a certain game of image, of authority, of ‘goodness’. Some stories and tales about yourself, according to the opinion of the consciousness, may spoil your reputation. But to be honest, I simply got tired of living by its rules… And when you accept for yourself that “the truth is more valuable for me,” then it becomes simple to voice the way it works. So, in the childhood, I really felt in myself an inclusion of something bad, of this sinfulness or something, that there was something from the Animal nature. And I wanted to be good. But this something bad was constantly pressing on me, and I wanted to avoid this state in myself. But it was very intrusive. But back then I didn't understand why it was happening that way.
IM: You have raised the question right. In fact, in childhood, especially at the age of 5-6 years, well, a bit older, up to the age of 10-11, people feel some sort of duality. They feel that consciousness imposes on them. They feel that they don't want it, but it imposes. They don't want to be afraid, but they are afraid.
They don't want to do evil or to deceive, but they do deceive. They understand that something dual is imposed in them. But when they are not told about the Personality, when it's hidden information to them, then the Personality loses that power to resist consciousness, it does not understand how to reach this holiness, to reach this freedom.
And what is holiness? It is, first of all, freedom from the chains of the consciousness, it is exactly what atonement for the sin is. Atonement for the sin – it is exactly a refusal of the dictatorship of the consciousness, when you become a truly free person, meaning Personality, independent from the material world. But many will say: “But how will you not depend on the body?” Body – it depends, consciousness – it depends, Personality – it is only temporarily here. What is more important? One should think about this.
But this does not mean that one should stop, let's say, any communication with one’s consciousness, absolutely not. Any aspiration to speed up the process – it is coming from the consciousness. Only consciousness can dictate to a person to end his life or this: “You will now go over to God. Simply just lie there don't do anything, don't eat, don't drink, tomorrow you will die, just pray – and you will come to God.” You won't come anywhere; you'll become a subpersonality. Why?
Because actually a path to God – it is precisely the work of the Personality, it is a striving. If you pick a green fruit – it will be green. Everything has to ripen. It's the same here. It is another matter that for some the ripening is sooner, for some it is later. But that time, which is given to be here (even if a person has cognized much, he has a right to leave, he started to Live, fusion has happened), but he will be here anyway. Why? To serve the Spiritual World, because this is a need. And if he does not have a need to Serve, it means he does not have an understanding of the Spiritual World, understanding of this importance, there is no wholeness. It means that this is an illusion from the consciousness, just another illusion.
T: Many have an understanding that they are close to the Truth, but consciousness… Consciousness is indeed afraid of facts and practice. By the way, it is also interesting, how it is mentioned about the first sin of the people in Zoroastrianism. It was just today that we mentioned the creation of the first couple of people from a rhubarb, and that, which is written in the legend from the chapter 15 ‘The nature of people’ of the holy book of Zoroastrianism “Original creation” (Bundahishn). And there it's interesting that according to this legend, when people transformed into a human image (meaning when they gained materiality, a body), then what did they continue to Live by inside of themselves? By that, which they really were by their Spirit. They lived by Joy, Joy in God’s Love, just by this state of spiritual grace as a source of their true Life.
According to the legend, God (in Zoroastrianism He was called Ohrmazd, it is short for Ahura Mazda) told the first human couple, who were called Mashya and Mashyana, that… Now I will simply quote certain parts… “I have created you for the very best and perfect reasons. Perform devotedly the duty of the law, think good thoughts, speak good words, do good deeds, and worship no daevas!’ And at first, both of them thought this, that one of them should think about the other, as he is a human for him. And the first deed done by them was... they thought this… And the first words spoken by them were these, that Ohrmazd created the water and earth, plants and animals, the stars, moon, and sun, and all prosperity whose origin and effect are from the manifestation of righteousness.”
And there is an important moment in the story that: “Afterwards, antagonism rushed into their minds, and their minds were thoroughly corrupted, and they exclaimed that the evil spirit created the water and earth, plants and animals, and the other things as aforesaid. This false speech was spoken through the will of the daevas, and the evil spirit possessed himself of this first enjoyment from them; through that false speech they both became wicked, and their souls are in hell until the final incarnation.”
IM: They believed the consciousness… In this case, if we are examining Zoroastrianism, in which it is interpreted that people thought about bad things and Ariman rejoiced in their sin, meaning, they contrasted themselves with God, with the Spiritual World, but here it is exactly that they believed the consciousness.
T: Yes, they simply believed their deceitful material consciousness.
IM: Right. Meaning, people felt, they knew initially as Personalities that this world is created by God. But consciousness imposed on them a substitution and they believed it. And they said out loud that this world was built by Ariman and that it belongs to him.
T: Yes, they started to announce thoughts and wishes of the system, that the system is supposedly a creator of the world order. Meaning, they started to serve the devil. You know, this reminds me of something: the Universal mind, the Absolute, atheism, matter is primary, the Big Bang, self-organization of matter…
Zh: Yes, yes, yes.
T: And further on, it is told using the example of allegories of the legend about the first human couple, how this moving away of people from their true spiritual nature and the shift of the attention already to thoughts from the consciousness happened. According to the legend, when they drank the milk of the white goat, then Mashya told Mashyana that “My delight was owing to it that I had not devoured the milk, and my delight became less delightful and my body fell ill. That second false speech enhanced the power of the daevas…“
Zh: Meaning, they did put the power of attention, of these divine powers of allat into thoughts about the health of their own mortal bodies, about matter.
T: Yes. And then it is mentioned that when they already prepared for themselves first food on the fire from the meat of the goat, then one handful they threw into the fire, saying that “this is the share of the fire” and second handful they tossed to the sky and said that “this is the share of the gods.” But “a bird, the vulture, was flying past and carried some of it away from them, as a dog ate the first meat.” Meaning, this is an allegory that in three-dimensionality there already started the waste of powers of Allat on magic, on that which is food for the system. Exactly these powers, they were not put into the growth of Love and Joy in God’s grace.
And then we are reading in the legend that “owing to the gracelessness which they showed, the daevas became more oppressive, and they (Mashya and Mashyana) unwittingly started to experience sinful malice towards each other; they advanced one against the other, and smote and tore their hair and cheeks. Then the daevas shouted out of the darkness: 'You, humans, worship the daevas so that your daeva of malice may repose.” And then it is said that Mashya went and performed, in essence, a magic ritual and from that, the daevas became stronger, and both of them (Mashya and Mashyana) became so weak that for a long time they could not perform what they had to. And only 50 years after this moment, they already had children and their descendants, who formed human races.
Zh: Meaning, basically, the sin of the first people was in the fact that they believed their consciousness, started to lose the perception of the Spiritual World through feelings, the deepest joy from the communication with It. And simply started to waste the powers of Allat on deceitful thoughts, on thoughts about the health of their body, on earthly wishes – on magic. And actually, in fact, this is what is happening today with the majority of people.
IM: And yet again, what is the reason? In this case, it is the putting of one’s belief, of one's powers into illusion, into deception with a hope of getting something. It is simply an initial stage of the development of the system in the human world.
A human as a Personality
is initially without sin.