Alive conversation - pages 85-96
The text of the programme “Consciousness and Personality. From the inevitably dead to the eternally Alive” under the editorship of Anastasia Novykh. (Note, the abbreviations used in the text presenter Tatiana – T; Igor Mikhailovich Danilov – IM; Zhanna – Zh; Volodya – V; Andrey – A).
A human as a Personality is initially without sin.
T: Igor Mikhailovich, people often ask the following questions and get confused with the answers, for example, "What is “I”?", or "If my “I” is not connected with the body, then how can I hear?", or "How can I hear myself?", or "How can “I” observe the state of its own consciousness?" Or another question "How to discern inside oneself: where am I as a Personality and for the Personality as a Spirit - where is my consciousness?" In general, "How does consciousness work?", "What is the life of the Personality as a Spirit?" and many other questions. It is just that people have a lack of understanding of these questions.
IM: Yes, people do have a lack of comprehension, and this is caused by the intensive development of psychology, philosophy, various religious movements and trends that have strengthened the position of our consciousness. And the Personality of a modern human is in a less favourable position compared, for example, to a human who lived at least a thousand years ago. Why? Because the information flow is too strong, too many offers that lead astray. And the Personality simply gets confused, but the consciousness is active. The system is active. It has always been active, but now it is also well armed. It is armed with its writings that it has created. It is armed with modern technologies, not just books as before, but with the Internet, television and everything else. And the Personality is in this less favourable position than consciousness. That is why, in fact, this time is called the time of the Crossroads or the time of human choice, which road to take.
Zh: Yes ... the human choice between the inevitably dead and the eternally Alive.
IM: That is right. I guess, in order to get some better understanding, we will have to look beyond the quantum limit, which puts what seems to consciousness to be chaos in order, and look at the usual material objects that exist up to the sixth dimension. And at the same time, to look beyond the limits of the sixth dimension where there is something that people call the soul. Perhaps, indeed, we should talk about this a bit.
So let us look beyond the quantum limit and consider from the common point of view of a human, so that there is an understanding, what consciousness is, how it works, what Personality is. And we will start with the simplest. Well, logicians can argue or not argue, but I will tell the way it is without complicating these processes. And the one who disagrees with this, but wants to find confirmation, can look for answers in other sources, and the one who yearns shall always find.
Let us start with a simple question. What is a person's consciousness? How is it arranged? And why, most importantly, many closed religious, I emphasize, organizations dream of "the ninth day"? What does "the ninth day" mean in general and where does this concept come from? And this story is hundreds and hundreds of years old. And up till now, there exists this priestly clan that does a lot to realize this "ninth day". This is interesting. This is akin to worldwide conspiracies (this is for those who like the topic of conspiracies). It is funny, of course, but it is true.
Perhaps, for understanding, we will start with how a person evolves, how it all happens.
T: Yes, it would be a significant help to the people — to understand what consciousness really is and what you are as a Personality.
IM: Yes, of course. There are two types of consciousness. The first consciousness, let us call it primary consciousness, is the main one and is born with the physical body - this is the consciousness of a primate, the animal. However, the next layer of consciousness, which manifests itself in opposition to the manifestation of the Personality in the human body - this is already the secondary consciousness. Secondary consciousness — this is like a modern consciousness or a new consciousness, it is also called human consciousness. Here it is important to understand that it is the secondary consciousness that allowed us to overtake the monkeys in our intellectual development.
T: Now this is a very important point. This is exactly the answer that neurophysiologists have been looking for already for many, many years. But they are still stuck in the same place... Well, at least, they have been until this historic moment.
IM: Yes, that is right. Well, so, this new consciousness is very aggressive and active. Although both one and the other part of our consciousness — it is nothing else but a part of the whole system, and it is clear that this is a field structure. This is, by no means, the neurons of the brain and the like. Neurons of the brain (we have already discussed this in one of the programmes) — are just, let’s say, physics. Neurons — these are those structures that transform information that comes from the field structures of consciousness into physical, then into chemical reactions, and then back into physical ones, and so on. But this is by no means where the thought occurs or originates from, and where it works. To date, thank God, our scientists already understand this perfectly, that they observe only the reactions, although they are trying to catch a thought, to grasp something, but they see and observe the reaction.
T: So they see the consequence, not the cause.
IM: Yes. So, I'll go back a little. At the very beginning of life of a human being, while he is still in the womb, along with the development of his brain, the so-called primary consciousness develops. Why is it primary exactly? Because it develops in utero. After the birth of a human being, the primary consciousness is directly connected with the entire system of the human body. It controls precisely the whole human chemistry and everything else. But it has, I would say, an ill-defined intellect, meaning, the consciousness is limited. But it is also connected with the secondary consciousness.
And here there is an interesting point: the human soul enters a person exactly on the eighth day.
Until the eighth day, a human is no different from an animal.
The chimpanzee also has primary consciousness and quite a well-developed one. The analogy comes very close. Children of, say, monkeys and humans somewhere up to the age of three or five years develop in almost the same way. But then the human starts to break away rapidly. Why is this happening? Precisely because on the eighth day after birth, a person like, say, a vessel is filled with the human soul. And the soul creates the Personality. The Personality — this is exactly what a human really is. This is who you are.
T: The Soul and the Personality are exactly the spiritual components, and why a human became a human, and why he was created in image and likeness, it is because there was a part of the Spiritual World in him.
IM: And here again is an interesting moment, I do not want to miss it. Many people associate the soul with something intelligent and all-knowing. But the soul is the door, say, to the academy of sciences. There are smart people in the academy of sciences who know everything. But tell me, does the door know anything? Smart people walk through the door, but in itself, it is a door. Now the soul is a portal; it is an open door to the world of God. And the Personality is the very student or a junior research assistant who came to work in this academy and can cognize everything. But the soul is nothing else but a passage to the Knowledge. It is clear that all these are words, it is clear that all these are allegories. But this is an attempt to explain at the current level what it is.
T: Igor Mikhailovich, and the practice of "Who am I?", it is mentioned in the book "AllatRa", and you have talked about it in the previous programmes. It specifically implies that you need to get deeper to an understanding that "I" — is it, in fact, you as a Personality?
IM: Yes, in understanding "I" — it is the Personality. And the Personality is precisely what is directly connected with the primary consciousness. The very practice of "Who am I?" also implies that a person must find what "I" is, meaning, the Personality.
T: Meaning, "I" as a Personality that is connected both with the soul and with the primary consciousness (exactly the consciousness of a primate you have previously talked about, that the development of a monkey and the development of a child are identical up to a certain point).
IM: That is absolutely right, meaning, with the consciousness of a primate. In its development, it remains at the level of a child, that is, at the level of 5-6 years of age at best, but more often, even younger.
T: This primary consciousness (the consciousness of a primate) also connects the Personality with three-dimensionality?
IM: Yes. The primary consciousness in itself is directly connected with the three-dimensional world. It is connected with sight, hearing and, well, with all our tactile sensations. It is connected with everything that enables us to perceive the three-dimensional world. Primary consciousness is what gives information about the three-dimensional world to our Personality.
T: Now this is a very important point for understanding because since childhood, the system has been telling us that it is the information received from the senses that shapes human’s perception of the world and oneself. But in reality, the Personality has a completely different perception, different from the perception of matter as such. It is different from the perception of that same body in three-dimensionality that is controlled through the brain by the primary consciousness. This is a global setup from the system, substitution of the concept of who you really are.
That is, how have we been taught since childhood? That it is exactly you who perceives this world with the help of the five basic senses: sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch. That it is exactly you who feels pain, the difference in temperature, pressure, the sense of balance, the position in the three-dimensional space, the acceleration in it, the sense of weight, some other kinesthetic sensations. In other words, scientifically speaking, all the nociception, thermoception, equilibrioception and proprioception of the body.
Meaning, in fact, these are the problems of the body reflected in the primary consciousness. And the system puts an equal sign between you and the body. Although all this bodily perception of the three-dimensionality is only a product of the primary consciousness, nothing more. All this information about the three-dimensionality, all the events, all the situations, experiences — all of this is a derivative of consciousness. This is not you.
Where is the substitution? It is in the fact that it is not consciousness that perceives, but allegedly, you are the one who perceives. Yet again, the system has substituted the keys to notions. It is like in the tradition of Zoroastrianism (what we have already mentioned), when at the beginning human knew that "Ormazd created water, earth, plants, animals..." and so on. And then the consciousness told him that "Ahriman created water, plants, animals..." and so on. Meaning, lies and substitution — this is the way the system works, while the primary and the secondary consciousness are parts of the system. And this applies to everything: the life of a person, the meaning of his existence, and the question of who he really is.
Zh: Yes, the Personality and Consciousness... The duality of a human being. And consciousness as a part of artificial intelligence, as part of the system, does everything for only one side to develop, for consciousness to dominate. Even within religions... What do we see? Prayers, mantras that are said aloud or are mentally repeated many times, what do they develop? Primary or secondary consciousness. But what about the Spirit?
T: Hence, people, without understanding it, do absolutely everything for consciousness to dominate, meaning, the human essence. While the angelic essence, which is who they really are, is simply enslaved. People perceive themselves as consciousness (with lots of thoughts in their head, with emotional outbursts). And the spiritual is lost. The spirit, unfortunately, does not develop. It turns out that you live like an intelligent animal. That is where greed, hatred, envy... and death come from.
Zh: Yes, while everything true, pure, divine just does not develop. When it should be developed first. You just renounce what makes you dead, and shift the power of your attention; you live inside by that which makes you Alive. And until I understood this in practice, it was very hard to live — to live by consciousness. Because consciousness is a pile of doubts, all kinds of its alternatives, algorithms.
And the life of a developing Personality is something totally different. The Personality perceives any situation holistically, multidimensionally. The Personality knows rather than doubts. And the difference between perceptions here is huge. The Personality perceives holistically and multidimensionally the cause-effect relationships, even what is presented by the consciousness. This is a completely different life. It is very different from the biological life. It is consciousness that creates the cause, reaps the consequence. Consciousness always has fragmentation, division, a lot of chaos. But it is just a stream of processed information, which is presented to the Personality as an already prepared one.
To understand yourself as a Spirit the best way is to develop it in yourself and not wait for everything to happen on its own. Well, nothing will happen if you do not make an effort.
T: That is absolutely right. I would also like to say that consciousness so puzzles a person (with relationships, and attaches his attention to daily routine) that it just does not let him come to his senses. And what does it hide from the Personality? The fact that human is, in reality, a Spirit. Hides the fact that for the consciousness, Personality is just a source of nutrition. And that all this fuss is simply useless if, in the end, death awaits you.
IM: That is absolutely right. So, in this practice “Who am I?”, we consciously develop that which is something to whom the primary consciousness tells everything (meaning what we see, hear, touch, in general, all our perception of three-dimensionality). And the secondary consciousness is exactly that which continues to develop. If the primary consciousness gets stuck in its development, meaning stops its development at the level of about 5-6 years of age (more often, even younger), meaning that the consciousness remains similar to a primate, then the secondary consciousness continues its further development. And exactly with the help of the secondary consciousness we analyze, think…
T: Yes, we do analyze with the secondary consciousness. It’s a paradox! And we think that it is what we are.
IM: Well, it seems to us that we analyze, think. Again, let us go back, we are a Personality. The Personality has nothing to do with the three-dimensional world. Well, let us say, it is much higher in its dimensional hierarchy. The Personality is directly connected with the primary consciousness, but it is not connected with the secondary consciousness. Now the secondary consciousness — it is that which we habitually consider that we are... That is how thoughts come, images, our computing processes go on, that same logic and much more. Meaning, all these pictures, all this information that comes to us — it goes through the secondary consciousness into the primary consciousness, and then already the primary consciousness presents it to the Personality. This is for understanding: what, why, and wherefore.
T: Yes, and a key substitution is in identifying ourselves — it is “we” who “think”.
IM: Here the paradox lies precisely in the fact that we perceive all of this as "we are the ones who think" and the like. However, we are the Personality. The Personality does not think; it does not have the capacity for a thought process in the direct understanding, the way we perceive it. It is the primary consciousness that is able to think, reason. Yet again, without a secondary consciousness, all thoughts are reduced to almost a primitive state or to the consciousness of a primate: there will be very few thoughts and only of that which is necessary (well, mainly with the domination of our desires).
T: And a lot of emotions of a primate.
IM: Yes. And it is again caused by the emotional sphere. Hatred, enmity, envy — all of this is in the primary consciousness. Well, and craving: desires, urges and everything else. However, the secondary consciousness, it is exactly what imposes a lot of different desires and interests on the primary consciousness. This is what we perceive as ourselves.
A person most often associates himself precisely with the secondary consciousness, even omitting the primary consciousness. At the early stages, when he embarks on the spiritual path, really begins to study and observe, he observes the actions of the secondary consciousness with the help of the primary consciousness. And only then he can find the one who observes the primary consciousness and to begin to develop already as a Personality. And the more he develops as a Personality, the more he gets used to another way of not thinking, but perception. This is perception through feelings. This is, let us say, akin to understanding the whole process without arguing and imposing all sorts of unnecessary thoughts as "maybe" or "somewhere out there." Well, there is, let’s say, something different... It is hard to express it, that is the paradox. In reality, it is hard to express how a Personality perceives the world. Well, it does not perceive the world at all. Well, it is what it is.
T: Well, Igor Mikhailovich, people may have the following question from the consciousness: "And what about not thinking? And how about the fact that we are talking about the spiritual? After all, it is due to the fact that we are discussing something in our thoughts or talking with someone out loud that we come to the spiritual."
IM: A person never comes to the spiritual by talking about the spiritual. When a person talks about the spiritual, he is just talking about the spiritual. He is like "the Awaiter", he sits and talks. He sits and waits for it to come. However, a Personality has the ability to move. That is, thanks to this internal impulse, the inner striving of a Personality, a human is able to come to the Spiritual World, precisely thanks to that genuine thirst and that aspiration. For the Personality there is no space, there is no time. This is something else.
T: Here, perhaps, we need one more clarification because the next question will be "What does it mean to move on the spiritual path?" Because for an ordinary person in three-dimensionality, the notion of "moving" — it means that I have to move in space.
IM: That is absolutely right. Here again, we are facing a paradox. In the understanding of consciousness, the very "movement towards the spiritual" means that it is necessary to cover distance or some space, or time, meaning, something must be overcome. And what does a Personality overcome on the way to the Spiritual World? Obstacles from the consciousness, merely that. That is, having moved away from dependence on consciousness, having got out from under its power or having broken free from its slavery, the Personality becomes free, and then it can strive, say, to merge into the One light. Here, of course, one can find many epithets, associative examples, but all of them will be connected with the familiar to the consciousness three-dimensional world, and none of them will be accurate. Because it is completely different (it is not even another physics, it is something that is far beyond physics), meaning, to become a single whole with the Spiritual World or become a part of it.
What is important: even having become a part of the Spiritual World, the Personality retains its individuality, it becomes truly free. Here, too, it is difficult for consciousness to understand: "What is freedom?", "What does it mean to become the boundlessness while preserving one’s own individuality?" Well, again, we speak the associative language, and we use examples that are really difficult to convey. Well, to put it simply, it is better to do it than to hear about it. It is better to come there and see. Just start Living, then everything falls into place, becomes clear, it is easy, beautiful and interesting.
T: And this is also interesting, a word, in fact, has power. And human consciousness, knowing about this sacrament — it simply manipulates the meaning of words. Even in science, the fact has been known already for a long time, that our brain, or it would be more accurate to say, our consciousness, confuses the process of transfer of the information about reality by means of language with the reality itself. Basically, this is one of the algorithms of such a subtle substitution and distortion from the consciousness. Well, the consciousness works this way.
And so, as the person's speech develops (or, as we understand now, as the functions of the secondary consciousness develop), the consciousness already starts to code experience into words. And that is why in the majority of cases we do not even notice when words already become for us more real than the reality itself. But words — they are merely associations and symbols, it is an attempt to convey in three-dimensionality the experience gained through feelings.
Igor Mikhailovich says absolutely right that one should simply live by the spiritual reality inside oneself… There is a wonderful parable in the East about how an apprentice asked his master about the purpose of words. And the master told him that: “Words are a finger pointing at the moon. But when you have seen the Moon, then you need to forget about the finger.”
Zh: Yes, when you go through all of this in practice, then you already see this difference, which you simply have not noticed before, the difference in the substitutions of the most crucial understandings. Here, for example, when in practice, through the deepest feelings, you feel the reality of the Spiritual World, you understand that you, in fact, feel this boundless happiness, you feel it. You understand that there are no wishes there because there is everything there… And there is joy of boundless Love there and many opportunities… But this is exactly the holistic, this is the volumetric understanding, which differs drastically from the understanding by the consciousness.
Here, roughly speaking, what does the consciousness mean by the understanding of “to have everything, to have many opportunities”? For the consciousness — it is to have a roof over your head, a house, an apartment, family comfort, a car and maybe a penny for food, clothes. Well, endless desires to “have everything,” meaning everything material, everything which is in three-dimensionality, everything which is mortal dust.
And now you understand that the need “to have everything,” “to have many opportunities” and “to live in the joy of infinite Love,” but in reality, it comes from the Personality, from its desire to start Living, from its desire to start truly Living. But consciousness substitutes the understanding of all this and simply diverts your attention to mortal.
And before, you heard that the Spiritual World — it is some sort of light. Well, and you imagined it all from your consciousness, as well as you could, based on all the movies, others’ images, stories, that your earthly ears heard and that your earthly eyes saw. But what is light in your consciousness’ conception? It is like bright sunlight, which breaks through the darkness of clouds, or simply sunlight, which comes to replace the dark of night. But now you understand, you feel, you know, that there, in the Spiritual World, it is totally different: there is light there, in which shadows are not created, there is light there, and there is no darkness. And it is not what your consciousness is imagining, as light which blinds or shines in the eyes. No, it is completely different…
Or, as before, you read in a book, told others about it, that “the Spiritual world — it is boundless joy, filled with life and that it is peace.” But you did not understand yourself how happy joy and peace can be combined together. Because according to the understanding of your consciousness, joy — it is an emotion, and peace — it is rest in dreams or sleep, or simply your body sitting on a chair and doing nothing. Meaning, these are simply like two different states of consciousness. And you realised only in practice what was meant by this concept. Because there, in the Spiritual world, there is indeed an alive joy, there is an alive vigour there, there is a full, constantly new and unique life in the boundlessness there and at the same time, there is stability and peace. And it is completely different from what your consciousness imagines in three-dimensionality.
Personality knows — it does not doubt.
T: Igor Mikhailovich, one of the important moments of the conversation — it is an understanding of what you are as a Personality. Because now a lot of people do not even suspect that when thinking or talking “about oneself”, in reality, in the majority of cases, a person simply voices problems and lies of his secondary consciousness, well, and impressions from the movie, which primary consciousness is playing for him.
Would it be possible to specify in more detail what the primary and the secondary consciousnesses are and how they interact, and especially what the secondary consciousness is?
IM: The secondary consciousness — it is like an antithesis of the Personality, it is nothing other than that same reflection, we have already talked about this. When a Soul enters on the eighth day, a human becomes a human — a Personality appears in him. And the secondary consciousness appears as an antithesis of the Personality. It is indeed a very strong artificial intelligence. Why artificial? We have already discussed it, because the whole system is created artificially. And both the primary and the secondary consciousnesses — they are nothing other than a part of the system. The secondary consciousness is more closely, practically directly, connected with that which people call “the Absolute” or “the Higher intelligence," or, well, as we say for convenience — “the system” (it can be called in different ways; in religion, it is called “the devil”). And consciousness, its patterns, before were called “genies” and “demons” and suchlike. There was such an expression: “the devil has gotten into someone.” Well, why would he get into, if he has already been living there for a long time.
It is precisely the secondary consciousness that criticizes and all the rest. Meaning, it is that which we call the intellect. It is that which we actively develop when studying in the kindergarten, school, in universities. This is exactly the development of the secondary consciousness. And the more actively it is developed, the more tools it has. It does not mean that it should not be developed, on the contrary, it should be developed and as much as possible. But one needs to understand what it is.
The primary consciousness is connected with both a body and a Personality. And the secondary consciousness is connected only with the primary consciousness. And here an interesting point arises, that each of these consciousnesses considers itself as an “I.” And between these consciousnesses, as paradoxical as it might be, there is a struggle. But there is also opposition of both consciousnesses (each one separately and both of them together) against the Personality. They struggle for the power of attention, for those life-giving juices, let’s say it in such a material language, which emanate from the Personality, for that energy. It is like in the example: in order for a light bulb to burn, there needs to be electricity, if we turn the electricity off — the light bulb will go out. As long as our Personality pays attention to what the consciousness offered us — the consciousness is active.
When we are busy with some work, thinking, are focused on something, overwhelmed or just actively making conversation, or playing chess, contemplating — exactly the secondary consciousness is working in us. It is where a lot of information processing is needed and so on. And we always consider ourselves that it is exactly what we are.
But if we think about it, start to trace how the thoughts come… And the thoughts do come exactly mainly into the secondary consciousness, all these flashing images — it is all going on there. But they are projected onto the primary consciousness, meaning inside of us (let’s say, of our structure) the primary consciousness observes them. The Personality does not observe them directly. But it is through the primary consciousness that the Personality already observes them. And it is exactly the Personality which gives that power or that attention (let’s call this power attention), it directs this attention to hang onto this thought or not, to activate it or not.
But what is the paradox also in? The primary consciousness also considers itself as an “I”. It is that small child which lives within every person. Even in an old academician lives a small kid. Psychologists, neurophysiologists know this well. I am not even talking about political scientists. Look, all the systems are developed for a child, for a little six-year-old kid. And then they work. Why? Because all of it is aimed at the primary consciousness.
T: Yes, at the consciousness, which has stalled at a child’s level. And just now, Igor Mikhailovich, you gave an answer to one more question until this moment unsolvable by psychologists. They look at the duality of a person from their material point of view. And what do they observe, what do they wrack their brains over? That a person has several “I”’s and that there is a child in even the oldest, the smartest person.
Zh: Yes, this reminded me how You, Igor Mikhailovich, were telling us before that people, who were developing spiritually, became wiser, calmer, more reasonable by old age because they already had a lot of experience of spiritual practice, the practice of taming their consciousness. Meaning, they already firmly hold their consciousness in check. They looked at the world already as a mature Personality, this is meant in the spiritual sense, of course. There were peace and calm, the fullness of life by the Spiritual World in themselves. Meaning, they lived by the richness and diversity of the spiritual life. And in the worldly life, in three-dimensionality, their external actions were a reflection of their inner state. Next generations sought them for this deepest wisdom. These wise people cared for the same peace and calm that was in them to also reign in the society. And for people to not have this desperate need for something material. Meaning, they participated equally with the others in the creation of conditions for prevention, for protection of society from the active influence of that same system. They cared that not a single hair fall from the head of your child, that not a single child go hungry. And this is, of course, incomparable to what is happening in the society today, where the keys to the spiritual knowledge are lost. Everything is exactly the other way around.
T: Yes, sadly… And what are various techniques of manipulation with the human consciousness based on? Right now, unfortunately, this is a very popular topic which is a part of everyday life of an average person: how to influence, how to secretly control, manipulate consciousness of other people, how to control the crowd. What is this all based on? Exactly on the influence on this child, which lives within every person, meaning, on the underdeveloped primary consciousness. If we look globally, what is going on in the person himself, in that same environment of his, in the micro-community? The same as in macro. Meaning, all religions, and all political organizations, and all priesthood organizations are based on this manipulation and such an influence… Everything is explained as if to an infant, meaning, as if to a child 5-6 years of age.
IM: Of course…
T: And no one knows why it is exactly this way and not another way.
IM: Why? Because in reality, the primary consciousness has power over the secondary consciousness, or the new consciousness. It has power over it.
T: And when a Personality is developing spiritually? Just how can one become free from all this?
IM: How does a Personality function? After all, a Personality, due to certain laws, comes into direct contact with the primary consciousness. But again, the secondary consciousness, the human one, it dictates to the primate, meaning the primary consciousness, and tells it, shows images, and then the primary consciousness already presents it all to the Personality…
But when a person receives a certain degree of freedom by working on himself, he starts already to dictate and tell this consciousness of the primate what to do. Well, and in this way, he controls the consciousness completely. That is, can the devil be defeated? Not just can, but should be! And first of all, he should be defeated in oneself. He can not be defeated in everyone. In everyone — it is up to every person. And here we again came back to where we started. By defeating him in yourself, you have changed your world. And this is very important. But when there are many such people, then the society changes. Well, and then the overall power is lost, I mean the power of the Satan, and the society becomes free. Well, this is the dream of any normal society. It should be this way.
Can the devil be defeated?
Not just can, but should be!
And, first of all,
he should be defeated in oneself.
He can not be defeated in everyone.
In everyone — it is up to every person.